Summer Talking Meme #5
29 Sep 2015 05:08 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
From
evelyn_b: Recommend something with one of your favorite actors in it for an old-TV newbie (me).
Well, I gave this matter about two seconds of consideration before I knew there was only one answer. I know that
evelyn_b has been enjoying everything she's seen of Doctor Who so far - and also likes I, Claudius (and Julius Caesar?), so what else could I say but...
Blake's 7 (BBC 1978-81)
I once wrote a non-spoilery introduction post that may help (because if you Google B7 or look at anything to do with it, you will be majorly spoiled), but in short, it is not exactly I, Claudius in space, but if you sort of took that, a Shakespearean tragedy (especially Julius Caesar), 1984, Doctor Who, Robin Hood and a whole lot of snark and cardboard spaceships and 70s glam rock in space costumes and shook it up in a bag, you might just get something like Blake's 7.
In terms of actors I like, it has David Collings in the last episode, and I like all the regulars and am very pleased to catch them in other old TV.
It is unofficially/semi-officially connected to Doctor Who, mainly because so many people worked on both shows in the 70s, from Terry Nation (B7's creator, and creator of the Daleks) to various actors, set designers, directors, the producer, the script editor Chris Boucher (who also wrote Robots of Death, one of my fave DW eps, which also features David Collings & is Agatha Christie/Isaac Asimov-inspired) to some of the props. (And then in the 80s, DW borrowed some B7 props back, so there's one scene in a Seventh Doctor story where people are wearing Avon and Servalan's costumes.) Some corners of the Doctor Who Extended Universe cross the two officially.
You should pop over to my other post here, but basically, it is the anti-Star Trek, it could win the universe snarking competition by a mile, it has fanfic tropes for real, and despite all the reasons that it shouldn't work, it does, and it's amazing and enjoyable and bleak and heart-breaking and ridiculous all at the same time & almost every single character is interesting, from that guard on the left to our heroes (and our villains).
It also, btw, has the best/worst costumes and the very worst SFX! (Classic Who has nothing on Blake's 7. In any argument about which show has most delightfully terrible SFX, B7 is already the winner.)
Anyway, it is a thing! It's definitely worth taking in at some point during your Doctor Who tour. It's like the 1970s Torchwood, only if Torchwood weren't awful. (Sorry, Torchwood, I'm just never going to like you much; I think we'll both have to accept that. And anyway, obv. Torchwood could never be as good as B7. That would be silly.)
S1 is slow, although it still has fabulous costumes and snark, but if you get fed up, you can probably get by with eps 1-3, 6 and 12-13, before going onto S2, where the pace picks up rapidly. The big downside is that for complicated reasons, it's not out on DVD in Region 1, but YouTube/Dailymotion searching usually coughs up the eps. (At the moment, it's here, but the same copyright people are quite dedicated to taking it down again.)
The other thing I could rec here is obviously Sapphire and Steel, (ITV 1979-1981) which is one of the most amazing bits of old British SF ever made. It embraces its slowness and cheapness and makes a virtue of it, and spent all its money on its stars, which was a good decision, as they got Joanna Lumley and David McCallum. David Collings features in two of the "Assignments" as Silver, and it's a very good part to see him in.
S&S is a show about mysterious creepy things going wrong with time because humans have been playing with dangerous things like clocks and nursery rhymes and photographs and flowers and railway stations (and, worst of all, motorway service stations). Sapphire and Steel are mysterious beings who come along and sort these things out. They're not human, but we don't know what they are, except seriously cool, telepathic, and very beautiful and that they like standing about looking alarmed at stuff before dealing with it by being nearly as scary as the scary stuff. They call themselves Elements, but neither Sapphire nor Steel is actually an element anyway, so who knows? As a TV Guide once put it: "There are many ways of keeping an audience's attention - total lack of explanation is not supposed to be one of them."
It is a weird gem of SF and it is seriously mind-blowing and awesome. Once you get accustomed to the fact that nobody and nothing will ever move quickly in it, it gets really addictive. (I was once vidding it and thought my software had frozen but it was just Sapphire and Steel standing very still while looking mildly alarmed and beautiful again.) The fic for it is also weird and beautiful and wonderful and everybody does it slightly differently, because nobody knows what any of it means.
(I was going to link to eponymous_rose's brilliant guide, but it is now locked, tragically, because it was the best intro to S&S. Have this fanvid I made ages ago. It isn't a good substitute, but despite me being a newbie vidder and too ill to get the aspect ratio right (I know! eek!), it's still a good intro to what the show is.)
The length is only the equivalent of six Classic Who serials, or "Assignments" as they're known in S&S, and a few people have all of them up on YouTube, (e.g. here but the DVDs are also out pretty much everywhere, too). Assignment One is particularly slow and still has a lot of trappings of its original concept as a children's show (before somebody changed their minds and turned it into more general teatime tales of terror).
There are apparently currently plans to remake it which is intriguing but also terrifying, because is modern TV brave enough to forego any explanations whatsoever? Can they find anybody as good as Joanna Lumley and David McCallum? How will I ever cope if somebody else is Silver? The thought is scarier than an evil pillow*.
But at least not as bad as the idea of the B7 remake, which we have to hope will never happen. (Or better still, a pilot/1 series happens and is awful and cancelled BUT intrigues some new fans. Sounds like a cunning plan?)
(I'm sorry if I'm reccing too strongly, but while I'm apologetic about some of my stranger old TV loves, I am never going apologise for loving these two. Even if they're possibly the strangest of all. They won't work for everyone, but they're good enough & influential in the SF field to be well worth trying for anybody interested in either SF/fantasy or old British telly.)
* It is important to note that while S&S doesn't even try to compete in the silly SFX stakes, it does have one truly amazing category winner in Assignment Three's evil pillow. If I didn't want to get this posted now, I would go look for my pic of Steel glaring at said evil pillow.
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Well, I gave this matter about two seconds of consideration before I knew there was only one answer. I know that
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Blake's 7 (BBC 1978-81)
I once wrote a non-spoilery introduction post that may help (because if you Google B7 or look at anything to do with it, you will be majorly spoiled), but in short, it is not exactly I, Claudius in space, but if you sort of took that, a Shakespearean tragedy (especially Julius Caesar), 1984, Doctor Who, Robin Hood and a whole lot of snark and cardboard spaceships and 70s glam rock in space costumes and shook it up in a bag, you might just get something like Blake's 7.
In terms of actors I like, it has David Collings in the last episode, and I like all the regulars and am very pleased to catch them in other old TV.
It is unofficially/semi-officially connected to Doctor Who, mainly because so many people worked on both shows in the 70s, from Terry Nation (B7's creator, and creator of the Daleks) to various actors, set designers, directors, the producer, the script editor Chris Boucher (who also wrote Robots of Death, one of my fave DW eps, which also features David Collings & is Agatha Christie/Isaac Asimov-inspired) to some of the props. (And then in the 80s, DW borrowed some B7 props back, so there's one scene in a Seventh Doctor story where people are wearing Avon and Servalan's costumes.) Some corners of the Doctor Who Extended Universe cross the two officially.
You should pop over to my other post here, but basically, it is the anti-Star Trek, it could win the universe snarking competition by a mile, it has fanfic tropes for real, and despite all the reasons that it shouldn't work, it does, and it's amazing and enjoyable and bleak and heart-breaking and ridiculous all at the same time & almost every single character is interesting, from that guard on the left to our heroes (and our villains).
It also, btw, has the best/worst costumes and the very worst SFX! (Classic Who has nothing on Blake's 7. In any argument about which show has most delightfully terrible SFX, B7 is already the winner.)
Anyway, it is a thing! It's definitely worth taking in at some point during your Doctor Who tour. It's like the 1970s Torchwood, only if Torchwood weren't awful. (Sorry, Torchwood, I'm just never going to like you much; I think we'll both have to accept that. And anyway, obv. Torchwood could never be as good as B7. That would be silly.)
S1 is slow, although it still has fabulous costumes and snark, but if you get fed up, you can probably get by with eps 1-3, 6 and 12-13, before going onto S2, where the pace picks up rapidly. The big downside is that for complicated reasons, it's not out on DVD in Region 1, but YouTube/Dailymotion searching usually coughs up the eps. (At the moment, it's here, but the same copyright people are quite dedicated to taking it down again.)
The other thing I could rec here is obviously Sapphire and Steel, (ITV 1979-1981) which is one of the most amazing bits of old British SF ever made. It embraces its slowness and cheapness and makes a virtue of it, and spent all its money on its stars, which was a good decision, as they got Joanna Lumley and David McCallum. David Collings features in two of the "Assignments" as Silver, and it's a very good part to see him in.
S&S is a show about mysterious creepy things going wrong with time because humans have been playing with dangerous things like clocks and nursery rhymes and photographs and flowers and railway stations (and, worst of all, motorway service stations). Sapphire and Steel are mysterious beings who come along and sort these things out. They're not human, but we don't know what they are, except seriously cool, telepathic, and very beautiful and that they like standing about looking alarmed at stuff before dealing with it by being nearly as scary as the scary stuff. They call themselves Elements, but neither Sapphire nor Steel is actually an element anyway, so who knows? As a TV Guide once put it: "There are many ways of keeping an audience's attention - total lack of explanation is not supposed to be one of them."
It is a weird gem of SF and it is seriously mind-blowing and awesome. Once you get accustomed to the fact that nobody and nothing will ever move quickly in it, it gets really addictive. (I was once vidding it and thought my software had frozen but it was just Sapphire and Steel standing very still while looking mildly alarmed and beautiful again.) The fic for it is also weird and beautiful and wonderful and everybody does it slightly differently, because nobody knows what any of it means.
(I was going to link to eponymous_rose's brilliant guide, but it is now locked, tragically, because it was the best intro to S&S. Have this fanvid I made ages ago. It isn't a good substitute, but despite me being a newbie vidder and too ill to get the aspect ratio right (I know! eek!), it's still a good intro to what the show is.)
The length is only the equivalent of six Classic Who serials, or "Assignments" as they're known in S&S, and a few people have all of them up on YouTube, (e.g. here but the DVDs are also out pretty much everywhere, too). Assignment One is particularly slow and still has a lot of trappings of its original concept as a children's show (before somebody changed their minds and turned it into more general teatime tales of terror).
There are apparently currently plans to remake it which is intriguing but also terrifying, because is modern TV brave enough to forego any explanations whatsoever? Can they find anybody as good as Joanna Lumley and David McCallum? How will I ever cope if somebody else is Silver? The thought is scarier than an evil pillow*.
But at least not as bad as the idea of the B7 remake, which we have to hope will never happen. (Or better still, a pilot/1 series happens and is awful and cancelled BUT intrigues some new fans. Sounds like a cunning plan?)
(I'm sorry if I'm reccing too strongly, but while I'm apologetic about some of my stranger old TV loves, I am never going apologise for loving these two. Even if they're possibly the strangest of all. They won't work for everyone, but they're good enough & influential in the SF field to be well worth trying for anybody interested in either SF/fantasy or old British telly.)
* It is important to note that while S&S doesn't even try to compete in the silly SFX stakes, it does have one truly amazing category winner in Assignment Three's evil pillow. If I didn't want to get this posted now, I would go look for my pic of Steel glaring at said evil pillow.
no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 09:10 pm (UTC)*ducks, runs*
no subject
Date: 30 Sep 2015 08:11 am (UTC);-p
You can find out the actual details here at the S&S comm. It does sound more encouraging than most remake suggestions, but S&S is so weird and mysterious and perfect, that I am very trepidatious!!
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 04:50 pm (UTC)I think remaking it is a very bad idea!
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 05:03 pm (UTC)I have mixed feelings, but I think it is something that could be made again and be great, but I do not have any faith that it will be and I am not sure I can cope with a non-Collings Silver. That's just a step too far!! *whimpers*
(no subject)
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 05:36 pm (UTC)And, oh, yes, Sapphire & Steel. I may or may not have said this on LJ before, but it always makes me think... There's this (usually unstated) principle in SF, or at the very least in SF TV shows, that while you can be creative in coming up with alien characters and technologies and settings, they can never be too genuinely alien, because they have to be comprehensible to the audience and to be usable for the kinds of storytelling human beings understand. This principle is clearly, obviously, fundamentally true... and S&S ignores it completely. And somehow, despite all logic, it works. But I can't see how it would be possible to remake it. It shouldn't have been possible to make it the first time!
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 08:13 pm (UTC)while you can be creative in coming up with alien characters and technologies and settings, they can never be too genuinely alien, because they have to be comprehensible to the audience and to be usable for the kinds of storytelling human beings understand. This principle is clearly, obviously, fundamentally true... and S&S ignores it completely.
*nods* They are so genuinely other, and yet it does work - and it's this fascinating Outsider POV on the human race and I just cannot think of anything else I've seen that pulled off anything remotely similar, not to the same degree. I'm sure there are probably some books somewhere, or something, but certainly not TV.
Everything you say about B7 is, of course, true.
I never lie about the important things. :-D
(no subject)
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 06:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 07:54 pm (UTC)*wibbles*
no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 06:14 pm (UTC)A re-make of Sapphire and Steel? That is a terrible idea. I can't think of a single way that would work out well. A re-make of Blake's 7 I can at least kind of think of a few ways they might managed it, but S & S? No.
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 07:51 pm (UTC)Okay, the news about the remake is here. I can see it working more than B7, but only if the makers have a real nerve and a brilliant pair of leads and I do not know if anyone could ever pull it off again. (I think the fact that the audios worked - that if you can hit the right note, the fact that S&S now look different is kind of irrelevant to them, but I just don't trust modern TV to do S&S).
I think with B7, they should make a hideously bad one and then cancel it & it won't spoil our fun, but will wake up a few extra people to look into the original and how much more awesome it was, even if the SFX was more terrible than they could possibly have imagined. Maybe!
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 06:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 07:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 06:40 pm (UTC)I am at the library now so I cannot watch any fanvids, but I will be home later! and I will read your non-spoilery intro post, too!
(I tried to watch some Torchwood and I wanted to like it but it was just a bit too douchey for me; maybe I'll try again in the future)
(also, I do love Julius Caesar A LOT) (the tragedy, not the guy).
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 08:17 pm (UTC)♥
I am not the person to ask about Torchwood, as I have an allergy to the script writer, so I had to break up with it before I broke my TV. I hear Children of Earth (S3) is very good, but I had already loudly noped out by then. So, you know, I think you should just watch The Sarah Jane Adventures (so much better) and B7 and pretty much anything else first. :lol:
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 06:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 07:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 07:39 pm (UTC)And now I also sort of want to write more weird elements fic, oh dear.
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 07:45 pm (UTC)They really are the best of 70s-80s Sci-Fi,
*nods*
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 07:57 pm (UTC)i lolled.
and... so, i enjoyed the MUNCLE remake, but it was pretty shiny and non-confrontational. it doesn't do anything interesting at all, really. and that's not a good place for sapphire and steel to go, when it's all weird.
no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 08:09 pm (UTC)I think a film of a TV series is less worrying, though, in general, because it's a shiny extra thing (or a terrible travesty, depending) but if you want whole series, you need the original. Whereas a new TV series is seen so widely as being Obviously Better, even if they really, really aren't. And they almost never are.
(Not that I'm grumpy and, well, not old, but old for Tumblr, right?)
And, despite my opinions and no doubt eternal grumpiness if either of these remakes ever surface, nobody should have to feel bad about enjoying a thing, old or new.
no subject
Date: 29 Sep 2015 08:13 pm (UTC)*considers mentioning Ben Steed*
*rapidly decides against it*
And S&S is terrific too, but in a completely different way, so they're a great set of recs. One's loud and shooty, but smart in its own way, and the other is slow and considered. And a bit less obviously cardboard. ;) Although yes, evil pillow. Still, it's not a wobbly, cardboard evil pillow, so there is that. And it does manage to be effective, for all that it sounds so gloriously naff on paper.
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 08:21 pm (UTC)I'm sorry about Torchwood, but it wasn't for me. Also I have an incurable Chris Chibnall allergy and we had to break up before I did my telly an injury. (I'm not allowed to watch Broadchurch for similar reasons. I don't think it would go well. Chris Chibnall works really well when he's being funny/lighter; when he's being bleak and Adult, which he seems to want to be a lot, I disagree with him so hard, I go into an instant rage. So, I'm just never going back there again, not even for Captain Jack. He's so much more fun in DW anyway. We should have him back!)
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 09:45 pm (UTC)... man, I need to get the Seventh Doctor episodes I don't have and marathon them, I have missed this glorious costume sharing. It will please me. :) (I like Servalan stealing Romana's coat though!)
I will always maintain that someone could do a brilliant remake of Blake's 7. They would just have to be really right on the ball and filled with a lot of understanding of the original and what it was and wasn't. The chances of us getting it are small. But it COULD happen!
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Date: 30 Sep 2015 07:33 am (UTC)Money and food are overrated, really. ;-) I was on there the other day & there was no sign of sale, so I just rushed over & rest assured, you're not the only one who just spent money they probably shouldn't have (whoops). But I got things I'd been eyeing up all year for 1 third of the price. It seems to be a 6 day only 60th Birthday sale for ITV? (Happy birthday, ITV! ♥)
I hope you get a chance to watch S&S soon, though!
Servalan and Avon's S4 costumes turn up in a scene early in Dragonfire. (The guards in Frontios have Federation helmets, a worrying suggestion that we got nearly to the end of time and the Federation was still there.)
B7 is about my no. 1 top of Things Nobody Should Remake because they would get it wrong. Nobody these days gets that you can be that bleak and that much fun. Plus, I think there's a lot in the original cast - I cannot see it ever coming off again. Adam Adamant or even S&S, maybe. Possibly. Because there's a concept in those above everything else, but B7 is a magic chemistry thing that should never have worked the first time round. But by and large I've learned that remakes always annoy me to death. I feel very grumpy, and would like someone to prove me wrong, but they never do!
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Date: 29 Sep 2015 10:34 pm (UTC)This is delightfully accurate, hee hee!
The only Torchwood I've watched, because I'm not a Russell T. Davies fan, was Children of Earth, and that was only for Peter Capaldi's scenes as Frobisher. ohhh, wowww, that was painful. Worth watching, though. Maybe you could watch that one for him, the way I did -- fast-forwarding until he's on the screen. *grin*
I can't believe I STILL haven't watched S&S. Only been meaning to for years. *sigh* Must try it soon.
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Date: 30 Sep 2015 01:08 pm (UTC)S&S really is great, though.
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Date: 30 Sep 2015 01:22 am (UTC)I reserve judgement until it is done. So many reboots are terrible but depending on who they get to do it, it may beat the current trend.
Blake's 7 is cursed. No remake ever gets beyond the "in development" stage.
Who to cast as Sapphire and Steel though...
How about Morgana and Arthur from the Beebs Merlin series? (one hasty check on IMDb) That is Bradley James and Katie McGrath. Or possibly Emilia Fox would do a better Sapphire.
I would love the reboot to feature the originals even though the Elements are not supposed to age - I think - however that could be an effect of the trap they were in.
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Date: 30 Sep 2015 01:11 pm (UTC)It would be wonderful if a remake actually turned out to be good, but so few of them ever seem to be that I've lost faith! Especially with my favourite things. But, yes, if they happen, we'll just have to see, won't we? I do think an S&S remake could be good - it's just whether or not it will be!!
I don't know who I'd cast - it's very hard to try and move past Joanna and David, or think of people with similar weight, but I'm sure there are some. Emilia Fox would certainly be an interesting choice; I could see that.
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Date: 30 Sep 2015 04:04 am (UTC)That was an evil pillow. *nods*
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Date: 30 Sep 2015 01:12 pm (UTC)And, LOL, oh, yes, there is an evil pillow!
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Date: 30 Sep 2015 04:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 30 Sep 2015 01:12 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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